Only One Bookshelf on Sexual Wellness in Romance & Ditching Judgmental Language

Beyond the steamy scenes, how do our favorite romance novels talk about sexual wellness? Are you tired of problematic language like "clean" or "dirty" when discussing sex and STIs in books? Today on We Read Smut, we're diving into the nuances of consent, communication, and ditching judgmental language around sexual health with Jillian of Only One Bookshelf. Join us for a frank and insightful conversation that will change how you think about sexual wellness in fiction and real life.

Jillian Carmichael is a virologist and romance enthusiast who rejects the notion that scientists must be always be serious. After growing up in evangelical purity culture and marrying her college sweetheart, Jillian promptly deconstructed and spent 6 years getting her PhD studying herpes. Yes, THAT herpes. Taking a big risk for her postdoctoral endeavors, Jillian, her spouse, and their two kids moved to a tiny apartment in NYC... 8 months before the COVID pandemic. Those hectic early pandemic days working as a virologist in NYC prompted her to search for an outlet of joy, and that's how she discovered romance novels. Now, Jillian and her family live outside DC and she spends her free time reading, going on family adventures, running, and advocating for science (especially public health and infectious disease) to anyone who will listen.

In this episode, we're discussing:

• Why using terms like "clean" or "dirty" to describe sexual health or intimacy in romance novels is problematic and stems from purity culture.
• The importance of consent in romance and how positive examples in books can equip readers for real-life conversations.
• How romance novels can serve as valuable educational tools for sexual health, covering topics often missed in formal sex education or misrepresented elsewhere.
• The critical need to destigmatize STIs like herpes and HIV, moving away from portraying them as character flaws in fiction.

CONNECT WITH JILLIAN:

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BOOKS/AUTHORS MENTIONED:

That Kind of Guy by Talia Hibbert (Amazon)

A Thorn in the Saddle by Rebekah Weatherspoon (Amazon)

Bottle Rocket by Erin McLellan (Amazon)

I Think They Love You by Julian Winters (Amazon)

Heated Rivalry by Rachel Reid (Amazon)

Tough Guy by Rachel Reid (Amazon)

Almost Love by Anna P (Amazon)

Running list of books mentioned (Doc)

Transcript

Alesia Galati 0:00

Beyond the steamy scenes, how do our favorite romance novels talk about sexual wellness? Today we're diving into the nuances of consent, communication, and ditching those judgmental languages around sexual wellness with Jillian of Only One Bookshelf. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast contains mature content intended for adult audiences only. Hello, Gillian. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. So if you could start by telling everybody a bit about your adult reading journey.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Well, I will just say I read a lot as a kid. I was a library kid. My mom was very much like read, read, read. So I've always enjoyed reading. But like in college and early adulthood, I wasn't reading a ton for fun. And then I basically spent all of my 20s in grad school. Basically, yeah, from like 23 to 30, I was in grad school working on a PhD. And so I didn't have tons of free time. But like maybe halfway through grad school, I started reading a little bit just because I needed something for fun. So I read like some mystery series and a little bit of like, I would call it like chicklet is the term that's used, which people are like, that's reductive. I'm like, no, it's fine. Like, I'm not offended by that. And so I read a little bit of that and then finished my PhD and then moved to New York to do my postdoc right before COVID happened. And so then I was there. It was crazy and chaotic. And like 2021, when I was just needing an outlet to deal with everything about like being a scientist, still in a pandemic in the city, doing tons of work, I picked up romance. I'd like downloaded Kindle Unlimited and I just started reading. Um, and then like in 2022, like got more into it and joined Bookstagram and really have gone from there and then have been reading extensively. Like it is my hobby since like 2022. So for like the last three years, just really reading a lot. And now I'm not a postdoc anymore. I'm still working in science, but I have more free time because I work a 40-hour work week instead of more than that. So it's been nice to actually get to have time to read. So yeah.

Alesia Galati 2:17

And then you have a bookstagram as well called Only One Bookshelf, but you do not have only one bookshelf anymore.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

I don't, I know. You could see my bookshelves. I started with only one bookshelf. The one in the middle was my husband built it for us when we were in grad school. And then we lived in a tiny, like 600 square foot apartment in New York City, and so literally only had room for one bookshelf. So when I started Bookstarram, I had very few books and was really only reading ebooks that I like got from the library. And then we moved to Virginia, and so I have a little bit more space. But it wasn't until this last year that my husband built me a couple more and I've been collecting used historical romances, but they're all together. So the the ethos of only one bookshelf for me. And I still read a lot of audiobooks and ebooks from the library too.

Alesia Galati 3:06

So yes, I love my Libby app and I especially love it for when I'm trying to get through my paperbacks because I have found that if I'm going on a road trip and I know, yeah, I really want to get through some of these paperbacks that I've been kind of hoarding in my bookshelf. I want to get through them. The Libby app has been great for those audiobooks to be able to say, okay, I read it. I read a book on my bookshelf, even though I actually listened to it.

SPEAKER_00 3:34

I know some people will read and listen to it at the same time, which I haven't tried that yet. I don't know if I could do that. I mean, I'll have to try it at some point.

Alesia Galati 3:44

I had my kid do that. He's 11. And so we did that with one of the some book about a dragon. And there are many prophecies and things anyway. Yes, there are many books with dragons. And so I wanted him to read it, but I knew he wasn't going to be as interested in it. And so I was like, or he'd be very distracted because he likes to just be like, and moving on, we're doing something else. And so to be able to listen to someone read it to him while following along, his comprehension on the book was so much better because he was reading along and he was able to tell me back, here's exactly what happened. And oh my gosh, mom, did you hear that? Because I was listening to it with him while I was like folding laundry. So we were listening to it together. And so that was a ton of fun. That's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

I'll have to do that for my kids. Or like my youngest, who's still like his readings still going a little slower. Yeah. That's a good idea. Yes. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 4:42

We just started listening to the trumpet of the swan together, and it's read by the author. And so that's such a That's such a clido.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Oh, I read that as a kid. Yes. We are thick, like in the middle of Percy Jackson right now. Okay. Which is fun because I didn't, I'm like a little too old to have read that growing up. So now I'm getting to read all the Percy Jackson books because we're doing like read alouds. It's really fun. Yes. Oh, that's so much fun. I love that.

Alesia Galati 5:06

Yes. Nighttime reading, totally for it. And if you have kids, it's a great way to connect with them and just get their love of reading in there, hopefully. But today we're going to be talking about sexual wellness, sexual health in books. And this is something that you talk very openly about. And I love your approach to it. So let's just start with the basics of using words like I'm clean or I'm not clean. Here's my uh report, it's clean, like using that terminology and why that is problematic.

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Oh yes, so problematic. And it's pervasive, like it's in romance all the time. It all really stems back to purity culture. So I like grew up evangelical purity culture. Like that was that was me. I had a true love weights ring, like fully in the thick of it. So this was like the messaging I got. I mean, that many of us have had. And purity culture messaging basically like you have to stay pure until marriage. It's very heteronormative. Um, but sex is always caged as like a dirty thing, right? And so I don't know, like if you ever heard like the duct tape analogy, where like, have you heard this one? Oh, okay. Well, this is like a classic youth group of the like 90s and 2000s. It was basically like your love life and your sexual life is like a piece of duct tape. So if you stick it on your skin and rip it off and have sex with someone, then it gets like less sticky. Oh my god. So by the time you meet your spouse, you won't have anything to stick together. Or like used a piece of chewing gum. I'm not joking. This is like, yes, this is what we heard. And so using terminology like clean and dirty in a romance, while it might not be exactly like, oh, this is purity culture, it harkens back to that. And so anything that portrays just sexual intimacy in general in those terms is like, ugh, it's why like the term clean romance that is used, I find, and many people find just really problematic because it assumes that sex is dirty, where sex is not dirty, right? And so that's why a lot of people use, you know, closed door or like kisses only. Like there are ways to avoid using the word clean when talking about sex and romance, be it a conversation between two characters talking about their STI status, or like just talking about if the book is open door or closed door.

Alesia Galati 7:38

So, what are some ways that we could, as readers, reviewers, right? Because authors might be listening to this, but this is for the readers, right? How can we talk about these things in and use better language around it?

SPEAKER_00 7:55

I've definitely seen, and this is something I pay attention to when I read, I've seen, at least in the books I'm picking up, it's gotten better in the last few years. I think more authors are avoiding the word clean. And so when I'm reading a romance and it's like a contemporary romance, and there's these on-page discussions about, you know, STI status, birth control, if it's a situation where you know one of the characters could get pregnant, characters using, you know, have you been recently been tested, or like my test was negative, it's all good, I've recently been tested, would you like to see my test? There are ways to do it where it's you basically don't just go, I'm clean, and then boom, because that's like what it how it has been used in many books. I don't want to hate on authors because I think some authors, and especially like maybe 10 years ago, like trying to even put that into a book, like, okay, we're gonna have this conversation, I'm gonna have my characters have a conversation about this, right? So this is something I see as like evolving over time, but like now in 2025, I'm like, there's better words than clean.

Alesia Galati 8:58

So yeah, for sure. And I can even think of a few that I'm like, this came out recently, and you had mentioned one as well that this came out very recently. What are you doing? We don't need to keep perpetuating this language. And I think that it also allows those who are going to have these conversations in real life. I think so often that people think, oh, romance is just fantasy. It's which it's not the idea of people being loved so wholly is not fantastical. But people say that and they'll say, you know, oh, it's just smud or it's just this. I think that there's so much that we can learn and that we can like thinking about if I don't have any girls, but if I did have a daughter, like I'd be pointing her as a teen to like, these are the empowering books, these are the books where they have those open conversations, these are the ones with all the consent kings, you know what I mean? Like all of that stuff of like being able to show a better way for the people who are reading these books. And I think that it's so important that we are shifting the language and how we talk about it.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah. And I would say, like coming back to this word clean, like you have the whole purity culture aspect of it, but then like also somebody who has a sexually transmitted disease isn't like a bad person. They're not dirty, right? And so it also comes to like shaming somebody who has an STI. And like I understand in romance that most romances, like the characters don't have STIs. But like in real life, people have STIs, right? It doesn't make you a bad person, doesn't make you a dirty person. And so just as I don't know, like as authors, like maybe try not use that word because it can just be so, so stigmatizing for people who have had STIs or who are living with STIs that can't be cured because there are some STIs that once you have it, you have it forever. Doesn't mean you're a bad person, doesn't mean you're dirty.

Alesia Galati 11:05

Yeah, that's so important. And it's it's interesting that you say that because the I personally have not had any STIs, but I get tested regularly, even though I like that's just me and my husband. I don't have any additional sexual partners. But I worked in manufacturing with a lot of dudes, and they would say, like, oh yeah, I ended up getting crabs, and like, and I'm like, does your girlfriend know that someone else gave you? And he was like, Well, no, I just said, you know, I didn't touch her during the while I was on the antibiotics. And I'm just like, oh my, oh yeah. And so like my experiences with people who have STIs um have been interesting because I don't think that people talk about this stuff in normal conversation. It's usually dudes talking to other dudes, and I just happened to be there because I'm like one of five women to 120 dudes. So it's just like, oh yeah, Alicia's just one of the guys. So yeah, I wish we had more open conversations to normalize that this can happen and that, like you said, it's not a death sentence. Uh, we were talking about before we started recording, like syphilis was a death sentence 100 years ago, whereas now it is not. And so there's so much to it that I don't think we really understand.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Yeah, and even like thinking about STIs too, and this is where I get like super nerdy because so my background, I did my PhD on herpes. Like I spent seven years studying herpes in a lab, like in a dish growing, like being super, super nerdy. Um, and so this is where I really started to like get used to talking about sexually transmitted diseases in like a very academic setting where it was like very non-judgmental. And I remember I went to a seminar by one of the, like, um, she was like one of the women on my thesis committee and she was a herpes virologist, and she was just talking in this seminar to like a room full of adults about genital herpes and how stigmatizing it was and how difficult it was for people who had it. And I was just like, oh, like this is like cool work that I do, but this is how we need to be talking about it because she's not stigmatizing anybody. She's trying to like break the stigma. And so I just some SCIs are more stigmatized than others, and I herpes and HIV, I think, are some of the higher stigmatized ones. And so just thinking about there are like people that you love and people you care about who have these who might not talk about it because they're like, especially herpes, it's very common. That's just something I'm mindful of as I go through life because of my you know experience working in the lab with it. So it's a fun conversation starter. And people are like, what did you study? I'm like, herpes. You get a read on people pretty fast.

Alesia Galati 13:56

Yeah. They're like, and next question. Or they're like, wait, tell me more. That's very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

And you know who's like always the most excited? Whenever I go, and I've moved around a bunch, so I've had to find new OBGYNs. They're like the most excited. They're like, oh, yes, like how can I help my patients? It's so stigmatizing. What can I tell them? And I'm like, well, I'm not a like medical doctor, but I'm glad you're having these conversations with your patients. Oh, I love that. That is so responding with my OBGYN over herpes. That's great.

Alesia Galati 14:26

Oh, it sounds like you need to do some seminars for OBGYNs on herpes because I think they'd be really into it. Okay. So moving on to something that we'll touch on briefly, but consent is such an important part of this conversation when it comes to sexual wellness. Why is it so important? And I talked about this with Claire with the episode that we haven't had in season one about historical romance. How very different we talk about consent in romance now versus bodice rippers, right? Uh like the consent range is so different. So why is this something that's just very, very important in romances?

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Because consent matters in real life. And I would argue that like romance matters in real life. Like, yes, they're fictional books, but like what we read and romance also affects, I don't know, it affects my life. Like I've learned so much from romance and it like I've learned about myself from reading romance. And so reading about like positive consent, or even sometimes something where it's like, oh, that was not great. You can also learn things too. Yeah. And also for especially like the next generation, like I want them to be reading like positive like relationships that have like a good, balanced, healthy, consensual dynamic between the main characters.

Alesia Galati 15:47

I agree. Romance can teach you what you like and what you don't like. So I think that it's really important, especially if you're in your self-discovery phase or trying to just rediscover who you are after whatever. I think that romance can play such an important part in that. And it makes us, I think, a lot better equipped to have the conversations with our partners or future partners of these are the things that I'm okay with, these are my limits, these are the things. And it doesn't even have to be like BDSM level. It could just be this is it, these are things I'm interested in, and these are huge turnoffs for me. Without having, and not that it's a bad thing, having had multiple sexual partners before this person having read it, you know what either lights you up or doesn't light you up, and you're like, Oh, that's so true. No, yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

Well, and I too, like, I read a lot of historical romance. I do read contemporaries, but I even read like older contemporaries. And so something I have found too is I've learned a lot about we're gonna just say like women in general, because women are the majority of romance writers, but like romance is written in the 2000s. Like, what were romance writers putting into their books, whether it's a historical or contemporary, you learn a lot about that era. So, what was the messaging like in the 2000s or the 2010s, right? Because even 10 years ago, things were different. So if I pick up a contemporary that's 10 years old, like there's gonna be different dynamics there. And as a reader, I look back and I can think, oh, interesting. Or like some of these like older historical romances, these women grew up that maybe they're even like older than second wave feminism, like some of these authors. So what was the messaging that they were getting that they were putting into their books? And to be like grateful, like how much it's changed. Yes. So, not that I don't like reading those books. That's always just a learning experience for me where I'm like, oh, interesting. And there are some like older historical romance books that have fantastic consent. So, you know, it's not like they're all bottotrippers, but there definitely are some. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 17:53

What are some ways that we can have these honest conversations, right? I think that a lot of romance books tend to put it in like they're about to have sex, which is usually when this conversation happens. Maybe that's something we don't take from romance. And so how can we maybe have some of that, those conversations beforehand?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Like in romance books or in real life? Real life, please. In real life. Yeah, not right before you're about to bang. Before before that. There are some romance authors who do it super well and make discussions about like STI status and you know, birth control and consent who can wrap it up and make it really sexy. And kudos to them because I love reading those books. I think in real life, though, that's a conversation that maybe needs to be had like at the kitchen table, not in a bedroom. Personally, those are all my personal thoughts.

Alesia Galati 18:47

Yeah, it's always fascinating to me when it's like, oh, so uh the condom ripped. You're good, right? I'm just like, not in real life, in books.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Yes, you need that surprise pregnancy though, right? In the book. In real life, it's very stressful. Oh my goodness.

Alesia Galati 19:05

It's and I honestly, so my first was a surprise pregnant. It wasn't that much of a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Was it a surprise, surprise? It was a surprise. Surprise. Oh surprise.

Alesia Galati 19:16

Yes, it was one of those. And so I do not like surprise pregnancies in books. I'm like, oh, she's sick. Dang it, throw the whole book out. I'm done. No, I totally get that. Yeah. Um, I think that conversation should be had well before. Um, and I think that it is so important. And I think that we do take so much of our sexual learning because learning in school about sexual wellness and health is ridiculous. And looking at pornography, whether it's ethically or unethically made, tends to be just like getting right into it without these discussions. And then we've got romance books that have this as well, but we just don't have the conversations of what do we do in real life? This is important. But what we're seeing in these other places isn't always the most accurate way to approach this and can be very unsafe.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

It's something I really appreciate when I read it in a book. And so this would be it's like the after conversation. So, like when the characters have already had, you know, the you know, sexual intimacy. Well, I sound like an adult of sexual intimacy, like a sex educator, when they've been intimate, maybe for the first time or whatever. And then they're having a conversation and they're like not in bed together and like they discuss it afterwards, which I've only read this in a few books, but I feel like that is very much real life, at least it has been in my case. Like, did like what worked for you, what didn't work for you? What do you want to try more of? And I like in real life, those conversations might not be the sexiest, but they can lead to like much better intimacy in the future. And so, like the before conversations about like status, you know, birth control, like the consent or do you have hard nose? Stuff like that needs to happen beforehand. But I would argue that to build your relationship, to have better sex down the road, like you need to have that after conversation as well. And there are some books that do this, but I'd love to see more of that in romance.

Alesia Galati 21:08

Yeah, I feel like that would be great.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

It's the show after the show. The show, right? Like a recap and then you try new things. And it, you know, some authors have done this. It might not move a story forward in the way they want, but like that is stuff that like I love to see because it mirrors what I mirrors my real life. So I'm like, I want to see that.

Alesia Galati 21:27

I feel like so. I recently listened to Megan by Rebecca Weatherspoon.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Oh, that's on my TBR. I haven't read that one yet. I've read the first two in the series.

Alesia Galati 21:37

Yes. That one is a lot more BDSM heavy. Okay. And so that one I because she's very much into the BDSM scene, and he is not at all, that it's such a learning together. And like she's very upfront of like, this is what I need in a sexual relationship. Is that okay? Are you gonna fetish it? Like, how is this gonna go? And then him being really interested in that and being like, no, that's actually really hot. I like that. Right? Like, and so like, and then him like her sending him almost like, here's your lesson. Here are the things to like learn. Yes. And he's like, Yes, please, give because I believe he's autistic. And so he's very much like, just give me all the information so I can learn all the things and like and I'll do it perfectly.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

I love that. I've moving this book up my list. No, I do love it. I think, well, and authors who write like BDSM and kink well, there tend to be a lot more like heavy, consensual discussions before, during, and after, which I love reading. And I would say that this has been something that like I really I don't read like I read really across the board when it comes to spice, but I do read like very spicy books that have BDSM, even though I am very vanilla in real life. I enjoy those books because the authors do such a good job of including those consent conversations. And it's so important. So I'm always really grateful when an author knows what they're doing and writes that well because it's such a treat as a reader to kind of like peek into that and get a glimpse of that and enjoy it and learn something in the process.

Alesia Galati 23:13

So we were talking before, this is like the show before the show, we were talking about HIV-positive characters and how historical romances can potentially touch on that topic and why it's so important to have that in a queer relationship, especially men, when you think about the 80s and every I believe, right, the 80s was when all of the It was the 80s, was when it was like like early 80s is when it started.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Yeah.

Alesia Galati 23:42

Yeah. So thinking about that, are there any books that really show that representation well of HIV-positive characters if someone's interested in reading something like that?

SPEAKER_00 23:55

So I haven't read any historical romances yet where one of the main characters has HIV, or where even it's two men. So HIV does affect more than just queer men, but it's mostly, especially in the 80s, it was the vast majority of people affected were queer men. And so that's why I'm saying, couching this in terms of like when it happened historically. I know there's one book out there, it's an indie by Logan Sage Adams, and it's a queer romance set in the 80s between two men. And I think HIV is mentioned as it would have to be, but I don't think either one of the characters has that. That's on my TBR. I actually just read a historical romance. Well, some people would argue it's not historical. It's set in 1985. So it's like set 40 years ago, and one of the side characters is diagnosed with HIV, and I'm like, this is gonna be a tragedy. But then the author had this character in one of the first trials for AZT, which was the first HIV drug. And I was like, this author's done their research. And so I'm like Googling. The author like used to work in HIV policy, and I was like, this is how you do it. It was a side character. But I don't know, I always feel, especially when I think about characters with HIV, especially historically, I it's kind of a hard thing because it so many queer men died. Like it's it would be really challenging, I think, to write. I don't think it would be a romance. There's been a lot of books in fiction and nonfiction written about that. But I do think contemporary-wise, there are ways to talk about HIV in romance. We see this, or at least I see this in the uh queer romances that I read, queer contemporary romances I read, uh, characters talking about PrEP. I don't know if you've come across this in books. So PrEP is uh like basically a pre-exposure prophylaxis. It's a cocktail of antivirals that a person can take if they are HIV negative, but they may be having like sexual encounters with someone who's HIV positive. And if you're taking PrEP, the chances of you acquiring HIV are basically zero. It's a phenomenal medicine and ways to prevent HIV transmission. So I've seen really positive representation of this in contemporary romances where authors will, in this like discussion before sex is happening, the characters will discuss use of prep. So I think that's fantastic. I'd like to cheer. Every time I read that in a book, I'm like, yay! Oh I'm such a nerd. I love it. But I would love to read a contemporary romance where one of the main characters is HIV positive if it is written correctly. And I would say, like, I am like a ciswoman. I am not somebody who's like high risk for you know acquiring HIV. And so I feel like this would be such an opportunity for someone who the author doesn't have to have HIV, but comes from more of an own voices community. So a community that deals with this more to write about that. Because I wouldn't want it to turn into fetishization or like trying, you know, I don't know. But I think anything we can do to destigmatize people who have HIV or HIV infections in general, or herpes, you know, whatever, the highly stigmatized one, anything that romance authors can do to destigmatize that and include accurate information in their books is fantastic. Sorry, that was kind of long.

Alesia Galati 27:08

No, I think it's so important. And as you were talking, I was thinking about like when I was a teenager and like mono was the big thing everybody talked about, right? And like how it was.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

Did you know it's caused by a herpes virus?

Alesia Galati 27:21

I did not.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Now you know.

Alesia Galati 27:22

Now we know.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Not the same one that causes general herpes, but a related one. So the fun facts of the day.

Alesia Galati 27:28

And it's like, who were they kissing, right? Which brings in like the priority culture thing.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Oh, so much so. I know. But especially for talking about STI testing in romance or like usage of PrEP, like having it just be like normalized in romance and like reading this, it's just it's such a breath of fresh air. And I'm like, this is what people need to read. And like I'm coming at it from like the angle of I'm a scientist, I studied at STI, I read a lot about sexual health because that's something I'm interested in, especially coming out of purity culture and healing from that. But for somebody who maybe doesn't have that background to like be exposed to these ideas of just talking about these and having it not be like the end of the world, uh I think it could be really, really meaningful.

Alesia Galati 28:17

Yeah, and I think, I mean, we're both parents. And so I think if there's a lot that we can do as parents to also have these conversations with our kids as they get older to destigmatize it, uh, because they they'll hear from a friend that a friend has, and then it'll be like, oh no, I can't touch the friend because I don't know, like whatever information they've gotten from, whether it's the internet or other friends, right? To be that first person to destigmatize these things for them so that they have a better understanding of sexual wellness because we certainly did not.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

No. No. I actually at dinner tonight, for some reason we were talking about the monarchy in England. I don't know, but I was talking to my kids. We got on the topic of Princess Diana, and my kids, of course, I have no idea who she is. We're like trying to explain why she's so good. And so I'm going off on the tangent of how she was like hugging HIV-positive children in the 80s, and my kids are like, What? And I was like, Okay, let's have a so we had a whole conversation at dinner about this. So, yes, it's never too young to start those conversations with your kids. Um, and Princess Diana was wonderful. So had to include that education in there as well.

Alesia Galati 29:24

I love it. All right, so you've got some really great books as well as some not so great books. We aren't going to name-drop the not so great ones. Let's start with the ones that don't really show great representation. And like we can just very lightly touch on them. You probably won't know them unless you've read them. We're not gonna like name-drop or bash authors. Hopefully, these authors will do better next time, is what our goal is with this.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

There's a couple that come to mind. I read a historical romance a few years back, and basically everybody's cheating on each other, which you know, some people like to read about cheating in romance. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna judge that. But what I found so problematic is that only the bad characters are the ones who have syphilis and then suffer the consequences. So it's this, and this is historical romance, right? So syphilis was much more serious. There was not uh, there was not a treatment. And so that's always like high stakes in historical romance talking about STIs because they were permanent, anyways. But only the bad characters get syphilis and suffer the repercussions and basically demonizing somebody who has a STI. And I I read that book and I was like, oh, and this is, I would say, since I'm somebody who reads a lot of historical romance, this is a theme sometimes throughout certain books is uh if you have syphilis, that is equated to being a bad person. And to read this through the books, and it's difficult because historical romance authors are walking a fine line because besides abstinence, there was no way to prevent syphilis transmission back in the day. Anyways, I I find it it's always interesting to me when I read this in historical romance, and they're basically using an STI status as like it's a character flaw. I'm like, it's not a character flaw. Like we can talk about cheating as a character flaw or you know, like all there's lots of other character flaws, but like having syphilis is not a character flaw. That's a no-no. And it comes up a lot in historical romance. So I would say that's something that I always pay attention to.

Alesia Galati 31:25

I wonder if it has to do with Capone.

unknown 31:28

Right?

Alesia Galati 31:29

Wait, how so? Like, because I feel like Al Capone is like the guy that you know died of syphilis. Like the only one.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Did he really? Yeah, I don't think I knew that. I'm such a bad microbiologist.

Alesia Galati 31:43

Well, now I gotta look it up to like make sure I'm like telling accurate information. How did Al Capone Google? Please let it be. No, it wasn't. No. Okay, okay, okay, kind of. Okay. So he had a heart attack. But he had following a stroke, but he had been suffering from neuro syphilis. Oh, okay. The bad before that, and the effects that syphilis had on his brain for seven years several years, which had impacted his physical and mental health. Okay, okay. So I learned something new today.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

That's too funny.

Alesia Galati 32:20

So that's what I was thinking. Like when you were talking about how it was like the bad characters, I'm like, I wonder if they were just like Al Capone them.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

Yeah, I don't know. But this is definitely something that's come up in multiple romance historical romance. It's almost like, okay. Also, as a side note, I just love how in historical romance you have all these rakes. So basically the rake uh, the playboys, the characters who just sleep around with everybody. And like a rake with like a wallflower, such a great pairing. He basically like falls in love with the either like the blue stocking, like the very smart girl who like doesn't really care, or like somebody who's shy. But it's always like these all these rakes. I never have syphilis. And I'm like, okay, in real life, we would have had syphilis. And I just like put that out of my brain. I'm like, I know too much. I just gotta set that aside, enjoy the book. But there's always a little part, I'm like, my favorite rakes probably all had syphilis. My favorite historical rakes.

Alesia Galati 33:15

And yes, that is a pairing that we find a lot in historical romance. We had an episode in season one, Lauren of Sex Ed for You, where we talked about the four cornerstones of eroticism. And one of those, I can't remember the exact phrasing of it, over this is it, overcoming ambivalence. So wanting someone who does not give a shit about you, who's just like, who are you? And and like a lot of people with purity culture tend to have this because you're supposed to want the guy, and I'm using quotes here, supposed to want the guy who is seeking after the Lord and doesn't pay attention to the girls. You don't go for the guy who really is like chasing you and trying to get in your skirt. And she said, and that's why my first husband was a gay man. Because that is how that happened because he was hiding himself. I was overcoming my ambivalence, his ambivalence towards me. He did not want me. And yeah, first kiss was the wedding, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:24

So, like I went to several of those weddings. Yeah. I mean, it's just like I again grew up in purity culture, so I know. I know.

Alesia Galati 34:33

So, yes, that overcoming ambivalence is such a prevalent part of like romance, and it's one that I definitely enjoy. And I think we do see that a lot in historical romances when there's like the rake and the wallflower, or the wallflower is just like, dude, you're a hoe. Like disrespectfully.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Like, I just love it. Eat it up. I know I'm the same way. So good.

Alesia Galati 34:59

All right. What's another bad one?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Another bad one. Okay, I have one. I will not name this book. I actually DNF'd this book because of this scene. And I don't DNF tons, I will DNF a book, but I I'm not a huge DNFer. No shade to people who do. I I like to finish books. But this one I DNF. Basically, it was it's a contemporary romance, and the characters were like getting ready to get it on. They were like, we don't have a condom. Oh, what did we do? And there, I feel like some authors use a situation and are like, this is great. We can use other forms of intimacy. Yay, it's fun. No, it was like, well, you can pull out. I'm not on birth control, but it's not a big deal. And I'm like, hmm, okay. But then we're inside the female main character's like romanologue, and she's looking at this guy and just like, he's a good, like, there's no way he could have an STI. I'm like, girl, no. And then she's like really wanting to have sex with this guy, and she lies about when her last STI test had been. She was like, Oh yeah, I was like tested recently. It's all clear, it had been years. And then, like, it's never, yeah. And I like, it was like a, I don't know, like one of those like screeching stop moments. I was like, I can't finish this book. So that that was bad. Because not only is it like bad practice, that's like breaking all the rules of consent, right? Like denying my STI status to get in someone's pants. No, I would hope any middle schooler would know that's wrong. So that that was a big no-no. But I think like in general, when I'm reading books and I'm like looking, and I read a lot of romance, so I can like pick out things that I like and I don't like. Like there's always some, I don't know, I don't know red flags, maybe, but hold up when it comes to like sexual health and romance. And I guess like some of the red flags or like things that would be like bad sexual health in books would be like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna read this from my notes. Any book that has like anal penetrative sex and then it's immediately followed by vaginal penetrative sex. By I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. UTI bad. So I have read that once in a book and I again DNF'd it. I was like, no, I can't, I can't. Nope. Any book, and I would say a lot of people would agree with me on this. Any book that doesn't use like lube for backdoor activities, come on, this is bad. No, just lube is good. Unless it's like a monster romance, and then I can like overlook it because monster romances are just supposed to be fun. Um and then oh, we were talking about this earlier. Whenever, like, and this is like a heteronormative situation, whenever like the male main character can like feel the hymen tearing upon deflowering like the virginal heroine, I'm always like, no, that's not how it works.

Alesia Galati 37:41

I talked to someone who grew up in purity culture, and she was like, I was, and I I want to say she's in her early 40s, maybe late 30s. She was like, I just found out that it doesn't have to tear, that it can be stretched like a muscle, and that it can be slowly opened without tearing, and I feel disrespected.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Some historical romance books will include that part. I'm always like, interesting, but I always love it when there's like a heroine who's like an avid like horse rider or something, and then like her hymen tears. I'm like, that's not how it works. Like, no. But these are like little details that I just pick up on because I read a lot about this stuff. And I have the like come as you are book on my shelf and like the vagina Bible. So those are the types of nonfiction books I read. So I pay attention when there might be some inaccuracies in romance books because that's how I am. Yes. All right, and you've got some good ones.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

I have lots of there, there are so many books out there that have great representation of consent, um, talking about STI status, or just like, I would say sexual health in general, that's like a very positive way. So, like you were mentioning before, like, how do people learn about this stuff, right? Like conversations with your friends if you're close and you're maybe a little bit older, but you're not gonna learn this in sex ed. Right. I don't think pornography is gonna have this in there. So, like, where are you gonna learn this? Romance books can be a great place to learn this. So I have a whole list of books that I think have really like positive representations of like sexual health and intimacy. This is not a comprehensive list, these are just some of the books that I've really enjoyed that have really positive, like different types of sexual health representations. So the first book would be That Kind of Guy by Talia Hibbert. I love Talia Hibbert. I have read every book Talia's written, I think. Anyways, fantastic. This is an age gap romance where she is older. And in this book, before the characters are intimate, they're having a conversation. So this is great. This happens before, not right before, you know, the sex. They actually have this conversation. And she mentions that she just always needs lube. And so they go out and the, I think the male main character goes out and he buys like lube and condoms, and then they use that, and lube is incorporated in basically every intimate scene. And I thought this was so great because it just normalizes using lube. Like some people need lube no matter how aroused they get, and there's no no shame in that. And so I was super excited when I read that. And I was like, yes, this feels so realistic. So shout out to Talia Hibbert for that one. Um, oh, the next one, Rebecca Wheatherspoon, who is just phenomenal. I read A Thorn in the Saddle uh last year. It's one of the Cowboys in California books, and that one was really fun because the main characters go shopping for condoms together because there's like a sex lessons component. So it's always really fun when this happens. And I was so excited because the female main character has to grab non-latex condoms because she's allergic to latex, and that was something I had never read in a book before. And I know that's like a small detail, but I'm allergic to latex. So I was like cheering. I was like, representation. I love that. Because there are non-latex condoms out there. So shout out to Rebecca Weatherspoon for keeping it real. I was very I was so excited. Probably a little too excited. Um, oh, next one. Okay, so I actually just finished this book two days ago and it was a phenomenal. Have you ever read any Erin McClellan before? I don't think so. Oh my god, you have to read her. She writes queer romances, and she has, I think, out of every any author I've read, she has the best conversations about consent. Her books do have some kink in them, um, and like varying levels, but like consent, sexual health, oh, it's wonderful. But in Bottle Rocket, it's basically kind of like a second chance romance, and you have like these two high schoolers who had been in love, and then like 13 years later, they like are meeting up again and they're discussing basically having a sexual lias on like only for the week. Love, we love romance for this. But beforehand, they sit down, and this again happens not like right before the sexy times, but they're discussing, like, well, what do you want? What do I want? And the male main character is like pretty kinky. And so he's like describing what he likes and is like, you don't have to do this. And she's like, Oh, I might be interested. And so they have these great conversations, but then what I absolutely loved is the female main character is like, okay, here's the deal. I get urinary tract infections very easily. So if we're gonna have penetrative sex, you have to wear a condom and I have to take antibiotics like right after, and then I have to pee right after. And so they have this discussion and then they do go on to have a lot of sex. And it shows this on page. And I was like, this is phenomenal because I have read books where like the female main character, it's like, you know, P I V sex, she gets up to pee after sex, and I'm always like cheering when I read that because this is realistic. This is what we want in romance. But in Bottle Rocket, it's just like over the moon, and I was so excited, and it's such a sexy book, too. Highly recommend that one. Let me go back to my list. Oh, okay. I wanted to pick a queer romance, um, like an Achillean romance between two men where prep was discussed, because I think that's really just like an important thing I was mentioning earlier. Um, I read I Think They Love You by Julian Winters, and it's great because it's a queer black romance written by a queer black man, and it shows the main characters discussing prep usage because they're both on prep, and then they still decide to use a condom because they're in this kind of hookup situation. So I was like, I was just really excited to read that because it was so organic and it's just it's good. We need this in romance, right? Especially if you're thinking about who might be reading this book to have such a positive representation of oh yeah, prep. Oh yeah, condoms like no big deal, written by a queer man. There's a lot of books that do that, but that's the one I wanted to highlight because it very much is like an own voices book. Have you read the Game Changer series by Rachel Reed? They're like queer hockey romances. Heated rivalry is like the most famous one. It's really good. Um, anyways, one of the books in the series is called Tough Guy. Um, and it's a really interesting, you have this like big, masculine, like enforcer hockey. Player with like very femme hero. So it's an Achillean romance. And one of the main characters is on antidepressants. And it makes it really hard for him to finish. And so he they have this conversation before any intimacy, and it's like, hey, this is kind of what happens. And then the other main character is like, Well, I shoot off too fast sometimes. So it sounds like we're a great match. And basically, like in their intimacy and like in their intimate scenes, this dynamic is explored and it's not like shamed or anything. And I that was one that really stuck out to me in terms of like antipidepressants affecting libido, because that happens in real life. And so to see that in a romance was really, really cool. I thought Rachel Reed did such a good job with that scene. I mean, it was just like kind of special to read that, especially in the queer romance, like between two men. I was like, oh, like this is great.

Alesia Galati 44:47

I think I've read one book that had, and I want to say it was by Anna P, who's an Indian author. I love Anna. Um, and I believe she had one where one of the characters was on antidepressants, and it was in her previous series, the Wild series. I believe there's one uh and I will find it. The book will be here. It'll be in the show notes as well. But that one, they one of the characters is on antidepressants, and they talk a lot about him not being able, I think pretty sure it was the male man character, him not being able to uh reach orgasm during intimacy and how it was okay that it wasn't like a reflection of hurt quote unquote doing a bad job, right? Like to be able to have that conversation was so important. And so that's another one that I think they that particular thing really well.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yes. I also now that I'm thinking about it, I think Weather Girl by Rachel Lynn Solomon, it's a MF contemporary. I think that one also has antidepressant, but she's on antidepressants, and so they but she also has that conversation about like how it can be harder to organize them. I love books like this that have real life thing. I'm like, yes, please. Like this is stuff that we deal with as like real people. It can be important to add to that intimacy scene, but then also for like the relationship of the characters that you're reading as it goes along, right? I love it so much. So good. Raving about romance books is like one of my favorite things to do. And you've just unleashed me. I'm like, let's talk about good sex in romance books. Okay, I'm gonna bring up another one by Erin McClellan. She was the one who wrote Bottle Rocket. So party favors is her sapphic romance. Oh my god, it's so good. And what I love about this book, again, lots of discussions about like consent, but we see in a sapphic romance the characters having discussion about STI status because I feel like this gets left out in a lot of sapphic books. People are like, well, like women can't pass STIs to each other. You can, you absolutely can. And so, like, discussion of dental dams, I think, was discussed in the book. And I was like, oh, woohoo! Because I really haven't read too many sapphic romances that include this discussion. I've read a few, but party favors by far is the best one. And it's Aaron McClellan, so it's just it's so good and it's so sexy and fun. And like the dis what's great about Erin's writing is she includes this, but in the way that she writes it, it's like moving the book forward and it's like sexy between the characters. It's kind of hard to describe, but it's it's just so life-giving to read her books. So a huge Aaron McClellan fan, um, just in terms of her writing, but also specifically on this subject.

Alesia Galati 47:31

Yeah. There's one that comes to mind with that Bingo Love. It has two black women who, as a second chance, they really like liked each other when they were teenagers, and then their parents separated them. They each went on to like marry and have kids, and then ended up coming back together and like seeing each other again and being like, I still think you're hot, right?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

And then they like romances.

Alesia Galati 48:00

Yes, it's so good. And then they were like at the doctor getting their tests done together, and the doctor was talking to them about dental damage. Like it's like it's all incorporated in it.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Wait, what's the name of this book?

Alesia Galati 48:12

Bingo Love.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

I will read this, absolutely. I'm so excited. I love books that have this in it.

Alesia Galati 48:18

Yes. It was so last year I wanted to do um, like if people do their 10 before the end, I can't have a TBR because my brain fizzes. And I'm like, no, I don't tell me what to do, Past Alicia. You don't know me. Like it turns into a whole thing. And so I did a 10 before the end, and one of them was that I wanted to read three different formats than I typically do, or maybe it was two different formats. And so a comic book was one of them, and I had this one that I had got for free or bought really cheap, and I was just like, all right, I'm gonna read it. And I was like, I actually really enjoyed this. It was nice.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

Is it like a graph? It's a graphic novel. Yes. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 48:55

Graphic novel.

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Okay. I will have to. I've read Heartstopper, but that's like pretty much the only graphic novel I've read. Well, the kids like graphic novels. Okay. We'll add that to the list. I guess I got two more books that I think do a really great job in talking about like sexual health topics. So I have to have at least one historical romance on the list because I'm me. But The Perfect Crimes of Marian Hayes by Kat Sebastian is phenomenal. So Kat Sebastian writes queer historicals. This one is a MF queer historical. It's a buy for buy. It's just a great book. It's very much like black cat golden retriever energy. She's like super prickly. He's like literally a cinnamon roll. It's it's so good. One of the conversations is so the female main character, um, she's a widow and she has a child, but like she cannot have another kid. Like it would be dangerous for her health. And this is sometimes like something that comes up in historical romance because of just how dangerous childbirth was. But what I love, like, I loved what Kat Sebastian did here because the female main character didn't want any more kids and she like couldn't. And so she pretty much took it as like, okay, like, how can I have these two characters be intimate without the like PIV obligatory heteronormative sex? And so in one of the conversations, the female main character is telling the male main character, like, look, like this is off the table. One, I can't have more kids. And two, I don't like penetration at all. It does not work for me. And the male main character being like the golden retriever he is, he's like, literally, I'm down for anything. Like, you can penetrate me, like we're all good here. Like, seriously. And it's great because you get some really great scenes and intimacy showing in like a hetero appearing relationship. So, like an MF relationship that like it does not just have to be PIV sex. And so, like that book to me is such a it's a wonderful book, but like in terms of how it portrays sexual intimacy between a man and a woman is wonderful. So love, love that book. And so the last book that I want to mention is a Kate Seawells book. Have you read Kate Seawells before?

Alesia Galati 51:04

I believe so. I couldn't tell you which one though.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

She wrote like a bunch of rejected mates books. She kind of writes a real book. No, yes, the first one for sure.

Alesia Galati 51:15

So good. Okay. The Groveling.

SPEAKER_00 51:17

Y'all top tier. It's a it's a wonderful book. I love that book so much. Um, but like Kate Seawells, so if you've read, she has like very kind of earthy, like champy vibes to her books. I really enjoy her writing. And so one of the books she released last year, I was so excited for um because it's like it's in like the book blurb. And so she put this out there when she was releasing it. But so it's an MF contemporary romance. Um, and the female main character has HSV. She has genital herpes. And I was like, I have to read this. One, because like if it's if there's herpes, I'm gonna read it. Um and two, it's Kate C. Wells. And I was like, I trust her to do a good job with this. And so the book's called After the Shut Up Ring by Kate C. Wells. And it is like a very emotional book, and the the female main character is dealing with a lot of like internalized shame around her, like herpes diagnosis. And she's had herpes for a while when we meet her. But I really thought that it was, it really was such a groundbreaking book because I have never read this in a romance. Maybe there are other romances out there that have a main character who has genital herpes. I will literally, if anybody knows, tell me, I will read it. But what Kate did is that she really did her homework, like pretty much everything, because there's information that she has there. She talks about going to her doctor, getting diagnosed, like what type of HSV she had, and would it be a risk to like transmitting to her baby while she's pregnant? Like all of these things that are actual can be like real life consequences and risks to having uh HSV2 infection. She includes this in the book. And so the accuracy was great. But what I loved is the heroine, she goes on this journey of she's having to deal with this shame about having HSV2 while she is falling in love with somebody. And so there's this point in the book where she discloses to him. And so this is where I think like herpes and HIV are very different from some of the other STIs out there because herpes and HIV are permanent. So once you have it, you are living with that infection for life. They can be managed by antivirals, right? Like HIV. You can have HIV and be, they call it, you can't like if you're undetectable, if you can't detect the virus and you can't transmit the virus, right? If you take your medicine. HSV is a little bit different. You could take antivirals, but you do sometimes have outbreaks, right? Where you have an outbreak and then you can't have intimacy. And so there's some other things involved. But all what I'm saying is HIV, HSV, much more stigmatized and different. And so this disclosure is something that people have to do in real life. And I read, like I said, I'm interested in herpes because that's what I did my PhD on. I'm a nerd, but also something I've done to try and educate myself more on people who actually have like genital herpes. I'm on the subreddit for herpes, and it's fantastic because I get to read people's stories about like their diagnoses, how they're dealing with it, and see like the community supporting each other as the disclosure. So disclosing to a new potential new sexual partner that you have HSV. And yes, there's always some risks, but those risks could be mitigated. It's a really important conversation. And Kate Seawells put this in her book, and it's phenomenal. It's so good. It's actually kind of funny. Um, I'm not gonna spoil it, but to see an author take such care with a really like difficult topic to write about. And I think I should know these stats off the top of my head. I think like 12 to 15 percent of US adults have genital HSV too. So it's not like it's a super rare thing. And other people can have um genital HSV one. And so it is a relatively common infection. So to see that written in a romance was just amazing. So that book to me was a real game changer in how authors can write about difficult topics in books. So I know that was very long-winded, but really a huge shout out to Kate Seawells for doing that and putting that in a book. And like she was the first that I know of to do this. So I would love to see like going forward, I would love to see more authors, including something like an HSV diagnosis and not making it such a big deal because in after the shutter ring, it is a really big deal to the female main character as she's dealing with it. But for other people who are living with HSV, it's like just a part of their life, and it doesn't have to be this huge deal. So I would love to see it destigmatized more in romance. So that's my wish list. It's a very specific wish list. But that's my wish list. Yes.

Alesia Galati 55:41

We want more, please and thank you.

SPEAKER_00 55:43

Yes. Take away the stigma.

Alesia Galati 55:45

Yes. Yeah, and I that that's really the whole thing is how can we as readers read more of these books that can destigmatize these things that someone we probably know is dealing with, and to make it more normalized to be able to open the door to have these conversations in a productive and non-problematic way, right? Because that's that's what we want, right? To be able to do this properly. Jillian, this has been so much fun. I've had an absolute blast chatting with you, like getting all of these like fun details about the science behind it and like how we can do better, do and be better. And also these book recommendations are gonna be so juicy. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_00 56:32

So many. I love to make a list to keep it cohesive.

Alesia Galati 56:36

Oh, so good. But if people are like, I need more Jillian, please and thank you, where can they find you, get to know you, hang out with you all?

SPEAKER_00 56:44

Um, so I do have a bookstragram account. That is where I am most active. It's at only one bookshelf, even though I have more than one bookshelf now. Um, they are connected. It is one giant bookshelf. Um but yeah, that's where you can find me. I don't have a Twitter or X anymore. I got rid of that. Um, but I do have a Bookstragram and I'm on there a lot.

Alesia Galati 57:05

Awesome. And we'll make sure that we have that linked in the show notes for anyone who's doing other things while they're listening to us, because I get it. Check the links in the show notes. We've got you. Uh, Jillian, thank you so much for being on. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 57:18

Thank you for having me. This was so fun.