Jen Trinh on Grumpy Heroines, Authentic Storytelling, and Flaws That Make Us Relatable

If you've been listening to We Read Smut for any amount of time, you know I love grumpy female main characters! Today, I'm joined by author Jen Trinh to discuss why flawed, nuanced characters make for the most compelling stories, using her popular book Coming Clean as an example.

We dive into the importance of authentic storytelling and why strong Asian American representation is vital in romance. Jen shares her journey from burnout to publishing before turning 30, and why her experience with Hollywood and public personas inspired her to write a delicious secret relationship. No boring characters over here—these characters have depth, nuance, and, quite frankly, some flaws that make them so relatable.

Jen Trinh is an award-winning novelist who writes sexy books for nerds and weirdos. Previously a physicist/tech worker on the West Coast, Jen now lives in a pile of blankets near a pretty nice Wawa, along with her husband, his mini-him, and a medley of very sad plants. 

Key Takeaways

• Flaws Make Better Characters: Jen intentionally writes characters who are not bland ("toast characters"), arguing that flaws, trauma, and rich cultural lives create genuine depth and authenticity that keep readers engaged.
• Writing the Grumpy Heroine Fantasy: Jen reveals that her grumpy female main character in Coming Clean is a fantasy of who she wishes she could be: someone who can set boundaries and say "no" without having to smile or apologize.
• The Hollywood Paradox: We discuss how the setting of Hollywood allowed Jen to explore themes of authenticity versus public persona, drawing parallels to the parasocial relationships authors face online.
• The Author Peer Problem: We tackle the tough bookish hot take on reviewing fellow indie authors, agreeing that maintaining a boundary (like not reviewing/rating every book) is crucial to protect your peers and avoid backlash.

If you're ready for romance with rich cultural representation and grumpy heroines you can root for, start with Jen Trinh's Coming Clean!

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Transcript

Alesia Galati 0:00

If you've been listening to this podcast for any amount of time, you know I love grumpy female main characters. That is what we're talking about today, along with several other things, with Jen Trin. In this episode, we discuss the importance of authentic storytelling and why representation of very diverse experiences is so important in romance. No boring characters over here. These characters have depth, nuance, and quite frankly, some flaws that make them more interesting, but also so relatable. Listener discretion is advised. This podcast contains mature content intended for adult audiences only. Hello, Jen. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. If you could start by telling everyone a bit about your author journey before we get into today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Sure. My name is Jen Trin, and I started writing in 2019, back before I was about to turn 30. And I was at a job where I was so burnt out. And my husband encouraged me to quit. So I did. And I just started reading, especially a ton of romance, and I was like, I wonder if I could write one of these. And then because I was about to turn 30, I was like, I wonder if I could write it and publish it before I turn 30, uh, which was in two months. And so I did that. And then ever since then, I have been writing. I've published five books at this point. In the last two years, I haven't really done that much just because I had a kid. But I do hope to get back in the saddle soon. Very soon.

Alesia Galati 1:38

Be growing a human is a whole job in and of itself.

SPEAKER_01 1:41

So uh yeah, I don't know how anyone does that plus more. Especially when someone is like, Oh, I have more than one kid. I'm like, How are you alive? Like, how are you doing anything? But kudos to people who can just like do it all. You guys are amazing.

Alesia Galati 1:57

Takes a lot of support for sure. I'm always very open with people like my husband is a stay-at-home dad, he handles the majority of the housework. That's like amazing. I make meals and I do pots and pans and I fold laundry. That is it. Like he does all the bathroom cleaning, he does vacuuming the house, and he homeschools the kids, like he does all the stuff. Yes, he is the support. I don't do it alone.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

Oh my goodness.

Alesia Galati 2:26

Yeah, that's wonderful. Yes, it's an important distinction too, because my I was like, no one has the same 24 hours. Also, our capacity is very different. Like how much we slept the night before, and like when you were saying like how old your kid was, I was like, mine are 11 and 8. Like, I'm at a different phase. Like my kids slept through the entire night. My eight-year-old actually ended up sleeping almost until 9 this morning because they were up late watching the football game last night. And so I was like, Yeah, I got a full sleep. Whereas you might not have because yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:02

Yeah, it's been a real rough. Like the first six months, I was honestly just like, I don't think I'm ever gonna write ever again. Like, how will I ever get to that point? But now he's at the point where he'll wake up once or twice a week, maybe during the night. But like, I my body is still messed up. Like, I'm still I have insomnia. I'll wake up in the middle of the night and be like, is he awake? And it's like, no, he's not, he's not, he's sleeping like a baby, and I am wide awake. So sometimes I do use that time to think about book ideas, which is useful, but then I can't go back to sleep. So I'm kind of a zombie during the day, but he's cute, so it's fine.

unknown 3:40

Right.

Alesia Galati 3:40

They make it worth it. So relatable. So we're gonna try a new segment that we want to try for season three. Let us know in the comments of the YouTube video or in the comments on Spotify or send me a DM. Let me know what you think of this. But we're gonna take a hot bookish take from Threads and discuss it. And I've already let Jen know which one this is, but an author said that they're an indie author, but they also read a ton. I mean, I'm not gonna read it word for word because we you could easily search, know exactly who it is. We're not name-dropping people here today. And they want to rate and review books, but they want to make sure they do it honestly, but they're worried about being doxxed for not giving five stars for other indie authors. And their question is, do they make a secret review account? Let's go.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

So when you told me the question at the beginning, I misheard you and I didn't realize that they themselves were an author because I feel like that makes it so much more difficult. Yeah, I've had this question myself too, because there are some books that I read that I like want to support this person. I know that maybe this one book is the one that like I shouldn't have read by them. Like people write different things, and I know that every author has the potential to write an awesome book. And so, of course, I don't want to hurt their career or their books or like the chances that the right reader will find this book. Oh my goodness. Like, I myself would not leave a review, probably. I would maybe I would leave a review, but not like a rating. Because I think that people put too much store in those numbers, but also I do think that it's important to like be honest. What is your opinion?

Alesia Galati 5:29

Okay, so this is actually like I read a I wrote a whole book. Okay, like I wrote a book in 2023 to 2024, like a romance, a soccer romance, and it's got some of like processing trauma in there from when my mom passed away. And I did not release it for this exact reason because I do not want to be in the author space and not be allowed, quote unquote, in the reader space. And I think that we really, as this is as a reader and someone who wrote a book, right? Like obviously I didn't publish it. I don't know what authors go through on that end, but I think that it's important that they're separated and that once you become an author, whether you're indie, trad, whatever, those are now your peers. And so would you do the same for like a coworker? And what would that quote unquote feedback look like? Would it be constructive or would it be helpful? And I also don't think that every book needs to be reviewed. And I think that's something that maybe like book talk has pushed us to do or Bookstagram has pushed us to do. Like, we have to rate and review every book. I have read some really shitty books this year. And I don't really, if they're three stars, I don't rate three star books at all. If it's one or two and I DNF'd it, I will note why I DNF'd it or why I gave it a one or two star. I think a four or five star is fine, but three star books, I do not leave any rating or review. I'd read them, they show up in my story graph as having been read, but that's it. So that's my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

I think you're totally right. The distinction you drew between like an author is your coworker, like for sure. That's why when you first told me the question, and I guess I didn't hear the part about the reader being an author, I was like, yeah, it's totally fine to like honestly rate books, and you shouldn't be afraid that people are gonna dox you or whatever, because like I don't know, like you should just be able to say how you really feel about something. But that's as a reader, if you're an author and you're coming after another author, like that's not the most constructive way to do it for sure. I think you're right, like you shouldn't need to rate and review every single book that's out there. If I DNF a book, I'm just like, okay, that's I tried, but I don't need to say anything, I don't need a shit on them or this book. It's just not for me. That's all it is. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 8:01

Yeah. The majority of my DNFs tend to be problematic issues, right? So, like in one, I've mentioned this before on the show, there was one book where the female main character and another character were bad mouthing someone else because they thought she might be a sex worker. And I was like, oh no, we don't do that. We don't do that, we don't do that to other women, especially women who are who are maybe you don't even know, are sex workers, absolutely not DNF. Yeah, and thankfully I wasn't invested in the characters by that point because it was like two chapters in.

SPEAKER_01 8:38

A lot of my DNFs are actually because I don't like care about the characters at all. And a lot of that stems from them just being really bland. And like we before this, we were talking about like unlikable heroines and how you spoke to a previous author about like why she writes characters who she thinks are like interesting, and like I sort of do the same thing. And if I encounter like a really bland main character, I just I don't care about them. I'm like, why are you giving me this like piece of toast? Like, I would rather eat something spicy or injured. Like, I like flawed characters, I liked characters who are like really authentically into something or have like really rich lives. I don't know. If I just get a really boring cardboard cutout character, that's what I'm like. I'm wasting my time. I have read this book a thousand times, I am not going to read it again. So yeah. If it's problematic, I'm actually more okay continuing to read it because I think that characters can change and grow. Like maybe the author is deliberately putting a problematic moment in there to show you something. And so I try to give authors the benefit of the doubt. But if your characters are boring, I'm sorry, I can't forgive you. That's what it is.

Alesia Galati 9:50

Oh, that's so awesome. You mentioned something beforehand that I think when we had like previously talked about this question that I think was really important. That is, if you create a secret account to answer the like, should they make a secret account, the internet will find you. Like they're gonna know. And that's gonna be one of the quickest ways, especially as an author, to get people to put you on their do not read list. Like they're not gonna want to support you if you're doing that to your peers. So I think that's an important note. And also just you don't have to review every book, it's okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yes, 100% agree with both of those.

Alesia Galati 10:36

All right, so that is our hot take bookish segment. Now getting into your books because I one I love, love, love coming clean. I read it earlier last year, and one I loved the grumpy female main character. That was like the thing that attracted me to it because I'm a hyper-independent, grumpy female, and I just love seeing that reflected and like them still getting love in all of these books. And so your characters in Coming Clean, and I believe almost every one of your main characters that you have are Asian or American Asian. Why is that important for you to ensure that you're having these more diverse characters in your stories?

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I do think it's very important. I think that I grew up having very limited choices in terms of what I would read that had any sort of relationship to like my life personally. And so I think that putting those stories out there has been really powerful and then getting readers to connect with me. Like people will DM me and be like, I've never seen this in a book before. That's awesome, or they'll cry, or just being able to touch people in ways that like I wasn't able to be touched when I was younger. I think that's been really rewarding. But just also wanting to write from a place of authenticity, and so a lot of my characters do have experiences or just like everyday details in their lives that like have come from either me or the people around me. And I think that sharing that it comes across as like more interesting. Like that's why I was saying earlier, I can't read bland, boring characters, but like if this character has like a really rich cultural life, you're like, oh, what is that? Or like, why is it like that? Or like, you know, I've never thought of that type of experience before. And I just personally find it a lot more interesting to read those types of books, so that's why I do it.

Alesia Galati 12:41

Yes. I remember the first time I read a book with a Brazilian character, and I was like, I'm Puerto Rican and black, and I was like, I don't think I've ever met anyone Brazilian, and like the culture and the diversity behind it, and I was like, there's some similarities with being Latinx in America, but speaking Portuguese and then the different cultural things that happen there, and I think that you're so right, it creates such more depth to the characters. You can add in those cultural things that like people have maybe never heard about, and that's great. And I think that's so important, and like you said, seeing yourself reflected in the books that you read I think allows well one, I think that books should be either a mirror or a window. So with a mirror being able to see yourself reflected, and then a window being able to see people outside of your cultures or things like that, and reflect the world that we live in. And I think that's been such a through line of this season has been writing the world as it is, not just the small town that's predominantly white, because that's not the majority of America and not the majority of the world.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yeah, so absolutely. And like some people want it to be that way, which is gross, which is why I'm like, no, we need to combat that. We need to show people that like actually a culturally rich and diverse world is like a beautiful place to be.

Alesia Galati 14:23

Yes. I love your characters, I love the depth that they have and the culture that they have behind them. And there was something with coming clean. You have your male main character, we'll get to your grumpy female main character in a second, but your male main character is in Hollywood, which I know as an Asian man is very like you touch on a lot of that in the book and the things that he's going through. Why was that kind of setting and that Hollywood-esque approach fun for you, but also like your decision in creating the characters in that way?

SPEAKER_01 14:57

So there were a few factors that led to both the setting and the themes. So one was that I had actually spent some time in LA and specifically in like the Hollywood Hills, and just I'm not like a bougie person by any means, but I was there celebrating someone's birthday, and I was just like, this is a weird moment for me to be like an outsider looking in. And I kind of wondered if you're this awkward, introverted person, and then you happen to like explode onto the scene because you love acting or whatever. It's like, what would it be like for you to have to then pretend to be like this this incredibly hot, like, you know, I'm the it man, whatever the term is in Hollywood. And I think at the time that I was writing the book, there had been more like high-profile movies with Asian American actors in it, or Asian actors in general. Crazy Rich Asians had come out and everything everywhere all at once had come out. And there were just more movies with Asian actors, and they were having a moment. But at the same time, there was all of this like violence against Asian people during COVID. And so it was like a weird, just like we're in the news for different things. I was just thinking about what does it mean to be like the public face during a time of like great change within the community. Also, because I'm a small-time author and I was on Instagram and I'm like, I need to be out there selling my books all the time. So it felt like, oh, I'm kind of like famous. Not really. I have 1600 followers or whatever. But at the same time, it's like I do have this public persona. Like people know me from my books and the things that I write and the things that I say online. And it's like that idea of like parasocial relationships. Like, I wanted to explore what it means when you think you know who I am, be stuck or like what am I trying to put out there as a personality in order to sell something. And so these were all just like things that were bouncing around in my head. I had a really good conversation with the voice actor who played Ian in my first book, Crushing on You. And so he's an actor, he's on TV, and he said that it was really powerful to read the role of Ian because Ian is just like this his sex symbol. And he said it's actually kind of rare that I get to read or embody this kind of role. And so, you know, I just wanted to make sure that I put it out there like, oh no, like Asian men can be very hot. And like they can very much be like sex symbols, and so I wanted to create one, but also have him be like a nuanced person and not just like this hot dude. And so I feel like I got the opportunity to do that through writing this character.

Alesia Galati 17:46

Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel like he was a himbo at all. Yes, yeah, so that's important. Not that himbos are bad. I've heard there are some pretty good books with himbos in them. I want to say it's Lady in Reverie has a post. I'll try to find it and tag it in the show notes. But she is a post where it's like a graph of himbo and like here are book recommendations based on either like for the guys, either they're really smart and they're not hot, or they're really smart and they're hot, or they're hunk like built buff and they're like Gronk from Emperor's New Groove. All right, and then here are all the books that are all in there. And so I'll try to find that post so we can have it in here for the show notes because that one's a good one if anyone's looking for himbo recommendations. But I did like that he wasn't that kind of character, that he did have nuance, that he had it's interesting you said like that parasocial relationships, because I feel like we've been seeing a lot more and more of that in the bookish space, especially this year. And I know you've been out of the scene having a baby and all that, but there was a bookish event that happened in August, and we talked about it on the show briefly, where someone was groping someone thinking that it was acceptable. And I and then authors coming out and saying that, oh yeah, no, I've had people like ask me very private things about my sex life at events, or do I do the things that I write about in my book? And it's like that parasocial relationship that readers have with authors is very interesting and creepy. Like, no, you guys are just regular people.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

We touch on very explicit and sometimes dark topics in our books, and so that's why sometimes I think people feel emboldened about talking to us and like broaching these types of topics, even though it's like you can talk about it in a professional way without needing to like dig into me as a person and like all of the things that I've done or been through. And but yeah, I think sometimes we crave that connection because we feel like we do know someone, like we know so much information about people now, but there's definitely a boundary. And I think sometimes I'm an open book. I feel like if people ask me things, I'm actually okay with talking about that, like most things, but I know that not everyone is, and I think that should be the default, is just don't assume. But yeah, I'm also just like, hey, you want to hear about whatever? Sure, go ahead. It's not an invitation to ask you, but if you did, I would I'm a chronic oversharer for sure.

Alesia Galati 20:33

But then I have moments where there are just certain things that I'm like, I'm not interested in going deep on that. So like I was in a podcast interview, it was a while ago, and I was talking about my journey growing up in a cult, which I anybody can like literally Google me and I will hear my story. But they were like, So what was the name? And I was like, I actually don't share the name because I don't really want to, like, I don't feel comfortable with that. And they're like, if you give the name, then it like takes away the power of the place. And I was like, I do not feel comfortable like sharing the name. Yeah, what is like what is happening right now? If I wasn't set on that boundary, then I might be like, oh, I guess I have to share this, which could maybe lead to legal ramifications for me because the cult's no longer around, and like I don't give people's names or anything like that around it. But like, why would you pressure someone? And so, like, we could ask the question of like, hey, do you feel open with sharing this? But if they say no, respect it and move on. Have other questions ready so it's not awkward.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Yeah. That's funny too, because you we were talking about like grumpy heroines and die. And I think part of the reason why I wrote the female main character in Coming Clean is because I wanted to embody a person who is less of a pushover like me. Like I'm a people pleaser and I I think sometimes the oversharing is because it's like, oh, if you're asking me this, then like I want you to like me. So I'm gonna tell you all of my business. But I wanted to write a character who like knew how to say no and was okay doing it without a smile. I don't need to be like smiling, be like, oh, I'm sorry, but no, no, she's not like that. And I very much wish that I could step into her shoes sometimes because I'm not like that at all. I'm very much like, oh, take whatever, like step all over me, please. Yeah, so it's just funny that you said like you, you had a boundary. That's why I'm like, I wish I could be more like you.

Alesia Galati 22:38

I promise I don't have boundaries about everything. Usually I'm fairly open, but yeah, for certain things, I'm like, I just there and I think that came with a lot of practice too. Of being like, I had 30-something episodes with my sister where like we actively did not say names, we actively did not say the name of the cult or talk about the people there like by name because we didn't want to do that. So then to be like pressured into it was like, no, this is my no, wait a minute. But that is one thing I loved about your female main character was that she could do it without a smile, and I think that is so important as women, and I think it is a defense mechanism for us to smile and put a little bit of pitch into our voice or come across a little softer or kinder for people, and it's so difficult to change that. So, as you're creating that character, what are some ways that you kind of had to maybe rethink things as you were writing that character to make her as grumpily badass as she is?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

I just sort of fantasized about the things that I wish I could do or say without that like I never actually did. I mean, there's one part where like she encounters someone who says like a racial slur to her and she's just like whatever, and she like says something flippant back and just keeps walking. Whereas I usually just don't say anything, and then afterwards I'll come up for like days. I'll be like, Oh, I could have said this, oh I could have said that. And then yeah, I just feel like a total loser in the moment. It's like you're just like shocked, you don't expect it. But I felt like with Di, I was like, what if she is this person who like unfortunately has come to expect it because she doesn't think that people are gonna be nice to her all the time, and so that's part of the reason why like she's quick to judge Darien, but then after he gets to know her, he's like, Oh, she's like a cat who's like hissing, but then once you calm her down, she's actually really sweet and cuddly, like she's a very nice person, but yeah, she's just had enough of people's bullshit, and like it was freeing to fantasize about it, like I said, yeah, to just be like, Oh, it'd be so nice to like not care what people say, or to just dress really cool, like that that's the thing. She's like into fashion, and like I feel like I don't know what to wear ever to anything, and like the default around here, like I'm in the suburbs of Philly, everyone's in sweats, like no one cares, right? But to just be like, oh, we're in LA and like people do care, but like she is wearing whatever she wants, she doesn't care what other people think about what she's wearing, and like there's this whole thread about how Darian is going to the Met Gala and he's just gonna wear the plain tux that every man ever wears. It's really interesting to see that like men, especially men of color, are now starting to wear like more interesting things on the Met Gala carpet. But like before that, everyone was in a tux. It was just fun for her to be like, no, you're gonna wear like this really interesting thing. You're not just gonna be wearing a tux like everyone else. And for her to push him out of his boundary in that way. But yeah, mostly it was just me fantasizing.

Alesia Galati 26:02

So which I think is so beautiful though, too, right? So we had Leonor Silise on earlier this year for this season, and she's a therapist. And so we were talking about using writing as a way to fantasize about things, even if you're a dark romance girly, right? Like to as a safe way to therapeutically process or explore ideas and how she writes found family in her books because she wishes she had more of that in her life and how she used that as a way to fantasize about and to kind of like, I want this. This is my fantasy. I want to create this for myself. And so, like, let me put it in my books. But I think that it is, it's such a safe way to explore those ideas that you have, not just as an author, but for us as readers, I want to be more badass. I want to say no with a with a straight face and it be a sentence. Like, I want to be able to do that and be like, yes, no, and move on and like, okay, call me a bitch, who cares? I don't want to care about that, even though I might care a little bit. It's fine.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Well, that's why it is a fantasy though, because in the real world, it's like there are people out there who are who don't necessarily have your best interests in mind. So, like, it is a defense mechanism to put on a smile, but it's very much it should not be necessary to do so. Yeah. Yes.

Alesia Galati 27:28

And that's why you raise better boys.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yes. I know I have a boy too, and I'm just like, oh, okay.

Alesia Galati 27:35

Oh, yeah, it's a it's definitely a constant. Don't do that clearly. And here's why you can see why we don't do that and or act that way. So I absolutely love your female main character. I love your male main character. I loved all of it and how fully realized your characters are that they're not toast characters. I'm gonna start using that, the toast characters. And so the characters in this story also have because he's Hollywood, she's not, because of his public persona and some things he's going with in the limelight that he can't really talk about, and then him still wanting to be in a relationship with her, it ends up being a secret relationship, which is always so delicious. And when you were coming up with the storyline, or as the characters were talking to you, like whatever your process looks like, how was navigating that while also thinking like one character being very front and center, the other one not, and also not wanting to be, how did that kind of shake out for you?

SPEAKER_01 28:44

I think a lot of what I was thinking about too was like authenticity. Like she is just such an authentic character, and he is the complete opposite because he has this whole public life. And so for me, that was like the tension between them. Like the core tension was he wants to be authentic, and she's like, I can only be authentic, I can't fake shit. This is how it is, and so that's really core part of the story for them. That's part of his journey mostly, is just like him coming to realize that whatever people think about me is not the most important thing in my life. My happiness is the most important thing in my life, and so then eventually he comes to realize, you know what? People are gonna judge me for whatever. It's not even just gonna be this. They're gonna judge me for whatever they want to judge me for. I just need to do whatever it is that makes me happy. For her, like, she doesn't understand this part of him at all. She's just like, just drop the act, be cool. Why do you care what other people think? But then for her, that's like the opposite sort of transformation. Like, she is grumpy and like, why do you care about what other people think? Because it's a defense mechanism. She wants to be like, you know what, they don't like me, I don't care. Even though she actually does care and she wants more people in her life. I think she also comes to understand that like she doesn't always have to be like closed off to people. She can actually try a little bit to be friendlier, and then it might lead to like some rewarding relationships. With she's quick to judge. She's like, you're in LA. There are plenty of people who care about what they look like, and they're trying to make it in the world, so they might not be completely real as well. I think that there is a balance between being truly authentic, be yourself, and also trying to like reach out to someone and meet them halfway and I don't know, be more open-minded. That you like touched on the core of the story, it was just authenticity and like that that secret parts of the secret parts of ourselves and sharing them with others.

Alesia Galati 30:47

Yeah, and I think that was such an important through line, and we're like keeping this super spoiler-free, just so everybody knows. Like, we're like, here's a little sprinkle of parts of the storyline because there is some drama that happens in the story, all right? Like, y'all go read the book if you haven't already, because there's drama, it's sexy, there's a lot of back and forth. I it fantastic. Please go read it because it's a blast. But I think that what you said was so true. Like, they both had to come to a kind of that like pendulum swing, right? So one is all the way over here, one's all the way over here, and like how do we find this center together where we're both realize that like we actually care about what other people think? Good, bad, and different, that doesn't really change, but you keep showing up as you, no matter what, right? Like, you don't have to do the I'm gonna be mad at everybody before they hurt me, or I have to be perfect so that no one ever hurts me. You can find that balance in yourself to be yourself, but also understand that you're human and you're gonna think actually that kind of sucked that they didn't like me or that they didn't respect that about me or whatever. So absolutely love that approach. Jen, this has been so much fun. So if people are interested in connecting with you, what are the best ways to go about doing that?

SPEAKER_01 32:17

I've been very offline recently, but I used to be and probably will be again soon on Instagram mostly. So you can find me there. I think that's probably the best way. But I'm always happy to get emails and DMs from readers and happy to answer any questions, mostly about books. Yeah. Awesome. And where can we buy your books? Anywhere books are sold. Oh, digitally, anyway. Yeah.

Alesia Galati 32:42

Awesome. We'll have links for all of that in the show notes for anyone who's going about doing other things as they're watching us or listening to us. And Jen, this has been so much fun. Thank you so much for being on.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for inviting me. This has been a blast.